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Soup ladle

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Author	Topic: Soup ladle
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 12-27-2008 08:57 AM I was briefly tempted to post this soup ladle as a "guess the date" quiz but thought better of it. It is by Parker and Wakelin, London 1770. Just over 14 inches long, it weighs 8 ounces so is a substantial piece. It is not in a style I would normally expect to find on British flatware of this date. At first glance I would have taken it for Victorian, made perhaps 100 years later. I assume it is an example of a special order that looked across to France for the design inspiration, but I don't know enough about French flatware styles to be certain whether this sort of pattern was around in 1770. I am hoping one of our more knowledgeable members may be able to enlighten me. IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 12-29-2008 04:59 PM Perhaps it would help if I clarified my question a bit. While most 18th century serving pieces match the patterns of the flatware for place settings, the rococo brought in a fashion for more decorative serving spoons and ladles. This ladle could be seen as coming towards the end of that rococo tradition. I imagine that the double swell at the top of the stem and the shoulders are influenced by the shape of some French flatware of the period. Although the ladle's decoration includes rococo elements, the effect is not particularly rococo to my eye. That is partly due to its symmetry and partly to the crowded variety of detail which made me think it Victorian at first glance, a bit like the more ornate King's pattern variants. What I don't know is whether the French already had a taste for such rather heavier decoration by 1770 or this is a peculiarly English development of the rococo. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 12-29-2008 10:17 PM There's really nothing much that I can add here, but it is a beautiful ladle. Were 18th century punch bowls and ladles made to match? IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 12-30-2008 01:22 PM Thanks Bascall Surviving punch ladles generally have a long, thin handle, typically whalebone (baleen) and differ only in the detail of the silver bowl. I suppose those with embossed decoration on the bowl may well have matched similarly decorated punch bowls. I think it is also at least possible that some silver handled ladles were originally used as punch ladles but are not now recognized as such having become separated from their punch bowls. As far as soup and sauce ladles are concerned, there are surviving services where their rococo ladles were clearly made to match or suitably complement specific rococo tureens and sauce boats. While this doesn't prove that such was always the case, I think it likely to have been the norm for these items which were at the top end of the market. If I am right, the ladle I illustrated above probably echoed some of the decorative treatment of the tureen it was originally made for. That said, surviving 18th century ladles are mostly Hanoverian, Old English or Onslow. The latter pattern would have served as a generalized rococo pattern that could sit comfortably with most styles of holloware. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 12-30-2008 02:39 PM Interesting piece. Like Agphile my immediate reaction was - Victorian or Edwardian. However in my own field - Georgian buckles - there are some examples which just do not resemble the uusual styles or even "feel" right but undoubtedly carry the correct marks of the period. Usually these have the marks of silversmiths registered. not in Clerkenwell or Old Street, not the area around Goldsmiths Hall, but in the West End or Cheapside - the fashionable retail areas. Normally buckles by these makers are seldom found in the UK. I suspect therefore that some makers specialised in either the export market, or foreign visitors to England. This theory is re-inforced by the contents of a wreck , the General Carleton of Whitby ,sunk in the Balic in 1785. She had among her cargo a large number of buckles, obviously intended for export, of distinctly alien patterns - but almost certainly of English manufacture. In the cotton trade it is well recognised that patterns for the home market 1800 - 1900 were totally different from those sent abroad. I think this spoon, not being of English taste, was intended for the foreign market. [This message has been edited by Clive E Taylor (edited 01-09-2009).] IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 12-30-2008 04:03 PM It is an odd piece. If it was intended for the foreign market, I have to doubt that it was successful: it's so stiff; it has curves, but none of the movement or naturalism of rococo. But, as noted above, it would seem less out of place alongside a tureen or punchbowl that repeated some of its motifs. IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 12-30-2008 07:00 PM Thanks for the various comments which have prompted me to take a new approach to trying to understand the ladle. I have done a bit of browsing in my library to find examples of tureens or other tableware of around 1770 and I see that there are a few heavily decorated examples in the sort of style that this ladle might go with. They are probably better described as neo-classical rather than rococo. I was perhaps, therefore, on a wild goose chase in looking for flatware precedents when I initially posed my question. The decoration on the ladle probably does simply pick up elements from the tureen it accompanied (which in turn will have been influenced by France, I guess. Given that Parker and Wakelin catered for the top end of the market I think it will have been made for home consumption rather than export, for somebody hoping to be in the vanguard of fashion. The use of detail from a tureen might indeed explain what I find the least successful aspect of the ladle's design: that the central stem and the terminal don't really hang together as a unified pattern because they are picking up different elements from the partner piece. I bought the ladle because it seemed interesting and unusual even though not a completely successful design. Items like this are in a way more fun than those you know all about when you get them, simply because they do provoke some inquiry, research and thought. IP: Logged
blakstone Posts: 493 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 12-31-2008 02:09 AM To answer your question about French styles, absolutely yes, heavily decorated “King’s” shape flatware was popular in France in 1770. The shape, called “Violon” in France, was introduced there around 1725 and by 1770 was decorated with some fanciful ornament indeed. In fact, some of the specific details of your ladle – the imbrication, the floral patera centering the stem, the “reed and ribbon” edging – are strongly reminiscent of the works of Parisian silversmiths Pierre-Denis Hoart and (especially) Jean-Louis-Dieudonné Outrebon. (Your ladle pre-dates both of them, however, as they did not become masters until 1771 and 1772, respectively.) Still, the ladle seems distinctly inspired by the Louis XV/XVI transitional neoclassical fashion and not any English tradition I'm aware of. The dichotomy between the stem and terminal you mention is actually quite common on French pieces of the time, although generally executed with, shall we say, considerably more savoir faire. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 12-31-2008 06:35 AM The French connection seem indicative not only of foreign influemce but possible market. If you look at the trsde cards and letterheads given in Heal quite a few are in English and French. Given the traditional English view on learning other tongues " speak slowly and shout at them - they 'll understand you if you make the effort " - considerable effort was put into enticing French custom - which implies a market. IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 12-31-2008 12:19 PM Blakstone Many thanks for the very helpful info. Much appreciated. It makes more sense that the ladle was directly influenced by French styles and not simply cobbling together motifs from a tureen – and I wasn’t on a wild goose chase after all with my original question. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned rococo when I started this thread but I was puzzled as to why the ladle wasn’t in the rococo style that I would have expected still to be in vogue in 1770. As I think about it, I realise that the rococo flatware from around that date had ceased to be high fashion: it was teaspoons in fairly standardised forms for the many rather than individually designed serving pieces for the elite few, some of whom were, I now realise, beginning to buy silver in a neo-classical style. Clive You may well be right about the piece being made for export and I don’t suppose it is something that can be proved either way. The reason I think it could equally well have been for the home market is that those who were commissioning the neo-classical tureens etc would be likely to have wanted accompanying ladles and serving spoons in the same style – and Parker and Wakelin is the sort of firm they are likely to have dealt with. However, that is speculation and not a view I would want to defend to the death! IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 12-31-2008 02:11 PM By 1770 the rococo style was well out of fashion on buckles- but due to it's asymmetric nature it was never very pronounced in buckles anyhow. But the neo classical or geometric styles on buckles did not come in until the 1780's. The spoon may well have has an English buyer, French styles being often popular in silver as in dress fashion. Clifford's book on Parker and Wakelin does not indicate a direct export trade but does mention several agents who probably did ship abroad.Unfortunately I don't think the sales day books exist prior to 1797, although the Gentlemens Ledger (Clients Accounts) fot the period 1765 -1776 are in the V& A. IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 12-31-2008 05:03 PM Thanks Clive. I don't have the Clifford book but I am now minded to get it. And I have been overlooking an obvious point by referring to my photo and not refreshing my memory about the back of the ladle which has a peacock crest. Fairbairn shows this as being common to a number of families but I suppose it might be worth checking whether any of them feature as P&W customers. IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 01-05-2009 07:21 AM Thanks to Clive and Helen Clifford's book book that he reminded me of, I think I can now complete the story. Pelham is one of the families to have the peacock crest. Charles Pelham is recorded as buying a dinner service from Parker and Wakelin in 1770 so it would seem this ladle was part of that service. [This message has been edited by agphile (edited 01-05-2009).] IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 01-05-2009 09:20 AM Thats wondefull - to be able to trace the piece's original purchaser ! Normally I am dubious over these provenances - but this one looks a 99.9% certainty ! IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 01-07-2009 03:16 PM agphile, that's inspiring. I wonder if any of the other pieces in the service are floating about in the market... Would it be possible for you to take a sideways picture of the ladle, so we could see the curve of the handle and bowl? Does anyone know if that is one of those design features that changed in a systematic way over time, or was it more random / depending on ladle function (soup, punch, etc.)? Blakstone, thanks very much for the information on the transition from rococo to neoclassical. IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 01-08-2009 04:27 PM Herewith my attempt at a side view of the ladle. As for the more general point about the shape of ladles, I have had a look at those in my collection and cannot spot a definitive pattern to how the curve and angle of the handle varies. Of course, my sample may not be large enough for this to emerge. The greatest variety seems to be among sauce, cream and condiment ladles. Not surprising given the range of containers they will have been used with. And just four old soup ladles is certainly too small a sample, but they do reveal two distinct styles. An early Hanoverian rattail ladle (probably 1719, but the date letter is worn and that would be a remarkably early date - ladles are generally considered to be rare before 1730) has a handle with much the same curves as this 1770 example. However, an Onslow ladle of 1758 and a feather-edge one of 1767 both have handles that continue near vertically much further upwards from the bowl before curving back (as indeed does my modern 1969 ladle). I hesitate to say whether this variation is linked to particular flatware patterns or to the size and depth of the tureen for which the ladle was intended. IP: Logged
Marc Posts: 414 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 01-08-2009 10:50 PM Hi there Agphile, Handles on ladles can be (and were) bent into whatever shape the owner desires to fit its vessel. This includes the large soup and punch ladles. If the owner does not want to do it, there is always a tradesman available. The first thing that you do not want a ladle to do is slide into the bowl, or tureen. Bad form. The second thing is you want the ladle to look good.. And when it comes to older ladles, the household help used them, not us. And the third item, is that each owner wants to do it his own way... I have 55+ soup and punch ladles from 7" long to 16" long, and while they are all lovely (sort of), the arc of the handle differs on all of the old, hand made ones, from the completely straight to a 90 degree angle. Always happy to confuse.. Marc IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 01-09-2009 07:12 AM Thanks, Marc. I think your comments clarify rather than confuse. One of the reasons I have relatively few soup ladles and other larger pieces of flatware is size. I run out of storage space for them. At least, I tell myself it's that rather than the fact that I am too mean tp pay the higher prices they generally command! IP: Logged

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