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British / Irish Sterling Rococo
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Author | Topic: Rococo |
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 12-22-2014 11:18 AM
A Christmas present to myself, but first the bad news before anybody rushes to alert me to it. Attached to the exuberant rococo handle of this sifter is a replacement bowl, simple in style though nicely pierced. I don’t think it looks bad despite the mismatch in styles. I guess the original bowl would have been some sort of extravagantly fluted shell. So, why am I pleased to have this despite knowing what is wrong with it? Well, I like to be able to show the way in which fashions evolved. This handle gives me an example of a particular rococo style that fed into the later Onslow pattern: cut off the up-turned top of the terminal and you would have a proto-Onslow. The handle has just two very worn marks: a lion passant that seems to be the pre-1739 version and an illegible maker’s mark. All I can say about the latter is that it appears to have a three pointed crown or a plume of three feathers above the faint remains of a couple of initials. It might even be for George Wickes - the quality and heft of the original piece suggests a leading maker supplying the wealthy and fashionable - but who knows? I am happy to date it to circa 1735 and to regard the bowl as part of its history rather than a reason for treating it just as scrap. IP: Logged |
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 12-22-2014 01:02 PM
That is an interesting handle. Someone obviously thought enough of it to save it by replacing the bowl. IP: Logged |
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 12-23-2014 12:03 PM
A nicely judged comment. My wife felt the piece might be improved if the bowl were given a new and simpler handle while I wonder what I might be tempted to do if I now came across a rococo ladle with a damaged handle but an intact bowl. IP: Logged |
June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1343 |
posted 01-01-2015 11:53 AM
It is indeed a beautiful handle. And I think it is very instructive to demonstrate the contrast in styles. Thanks for sharing and Happy New Year. IP: Logged |
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 07-01-2015 06:12 PM
Just added another Rococo piece, this time a hefty soup ladle, London made: 8.6 troy ounces and 13 inches long. I took a bit of a risk with an absentee bid at an auction when I hadn’t been able to visit and view the ladle. It looked reasonable in the catalogue photographs but the auctioneer’s condition report did refer to a possible repair. Now that I have it in my hand I can see this possible repair, but it is not something that hits you in the eye or that shows up in a photograph. The handle and the bowl were made separately and soldered together. I think the solder may simply have become more evident after some 250 years of use, rather than have needed re-doing. Either way I am happy with the piece. Because of this possible repair, and perhaps because the maker had not been identified, it proved to be far more affordable than these heavy and decorative early items usually are. The ladle had been catalogued as 1759 but that was a misreading of the gothic date letter and it actually dates from 1769. The maker’s mark was said to be too worn to read. However, a private buyer has more time to study marks than a busy auctioneer and I am confident that the shadowy remains actually read IR for John Romer. It doesn’t take much research to come across a number of Rococo soup tureens made by Romer in the 1760s. This ladle presumably accompanied one such tureen. It was made later than the one that started this thread, at a time when Old English had largely replaced Hanoverian as the normal pattern for basic flatware. This has influenced the design of the ladle: the stem end now curves down rather than up. Some of my pleasure in this new acquisition comes from having a bit more Rococo in the collection and some from the business of identifying the marks. It can be more fun than acquiring a pristine piece with documentary marks where there is nothing more to do than gloat over the new possession. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1971 |
posted 07-01-2015 07:38 PM
Wonderful ladle! I think a downturned handle is a better idea for a ladle than an upturned one--helps stop the ladle from slipping into the soup. IP: Logged |
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 12-08-2016 07:00 PM
It has been quiet on this Forum for a little while so I thought I might show a couple more Rococo ladles to bridge the gap in dates between the two I have already shared in this thread. I have just been a little irritated by reading yet another bit of expert advice to the effect that one should only collect the best examples one can afford as far as old silver is concerned. That is not my approach. Of course, I like to have some top quality items such as the 1748 soup ladle, but my interest is in charting the changes in fashion. With this in mind, I am quite happy to have some pieces that are tired, repaired or otherwise less than first rate as can be seen from the examples in this thread (and, indeed, in other threads). If I were to become more of a perfectionist, I would have a smaller, less varied collection that would not illustrate the history in the same way. My approach may not make as good an investment, but I don’t collect for profit. Am I being silly? IP: Logged |
asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 12-09-2016 09:47 AM
I don't necessarily disagree with that. Although I avoid damaged or repaired pieces typically, I'll occasionally buy a tired piece or dented piece if the wear is consistent with age. I usually aim for pieces that talk to me and sometimes these dented or tired pieces do just that. And remember, a lot of us will never sell these pieces anyway, so if you enjoy them that is what is most important! Great ladle by the way! [This message has been edited by asheland (edited 12-09-2016).] IP: Logged |
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 |
posted 12-09-2016 12:12 PM
We don't really collect but there are exceptions. Our interests are very diverse in the world of silver. So we can't help when our current focus causes us to explore/purchase and we end up with a divergent mini collection. Once our interest/research has been satisfied, then sometimes we are lucky to sell our explorations/research/"mini collection" for break even or a profit. Then there are the rescues we never intended to purchase but couldn't let something great go to melt. With the shrinking marketplace our unintended mini collections of rescues is not so mini. And these days, since it is harder to find homes for the rescues, unfortunately we are doing less rescues. Perhaps our largest homogeneous collection is our reference books and ephemera. Knowledge is the basis for buying smart. But the Internet has created a lot of noise and often inaccuracies .... resulting in less persons who really know the subject and therefore a shrinking marketplace. Unfortunately new opportunity to collect for profit has been undermined by the Internet noise ... just because something has a high price on the internet doesn't mean it actually sells for that price. So new opportunists with little interest in silver & the silver arts/history often overpay and are then stuck trying to find someone else to make their same mistake. So there are lots of sellers, with overpriced items and fewer knowledgeable collectors because there is little affordable as an entry to start collecting. IP: Logged |
ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 12-11-2016 09:40 AM
Thank you for all your interesting posts. Your ladles really are wonderful and informative. I also wonder about experts/dealers whose advice steers one away from items that are not perfect. However, the good side of this is that items that are not perfect tend to be a good bit lower in price with the result that I can buy more of the items that interest me. Another trend that I see in the American silver market is the inclination these days to call silver from St. Louis southern silver. I lived in St. Louis for most of my life and St. Louis is no more southern than the man in the moon is southern. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 12-11-2016).] IP: Logged |
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 11-16-2017 12:56 PM
Sorry about the quality of these photos. I hadn’t meant to use them but suddenly found I needed something to test out Scott’s latest success with the photo-hosting site. Anyhow, this is a recently acquired rococo soup ladle by William Turner, London, 1755. The crest is for Clan Fraser of Lovat. It is not really visible in the photo however! [This message has been edited by agphile (edited 11-16-2017).] IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1971 |
posted 11-16-2017 01:28 PM
I love seeing these ladles. Wouldn't it be amusing to use your rococo for cocoa? --Okay, maybe not. IP: Logged |
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 11-17-2017 06:52 AM
Oh dear,Polly. You have started me on a new displacement activity. I could use my art nouveau for Bordeaux and my Baroque for Hock (or for coke if you rhyme this with Baroque), and Biedermeier for beer by the fire. It may take some time to come up with something for neo-classical or mannerist or even art deco. I must make myself stop. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1971 |
posted 11-17-2017 02:09 PM
You obviously must use your Art Deco for Prosecco. IP: Logged |
June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1343 |
posted 11-17-2017 05:27 PM
Good one Polly. It had me stumped. IP: Logged |
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