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William Haverstick Silver

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Author	Topic: William Haverstick Silver
sandeesuzie Posts: 6 Registered: May 2008	posted 05-19-2008 11:13 PM [26-1660] Can anyone help me? I recently picked up a silver meat dome. It is stamped with a WH, then an R, then a B, then an S. I did some research and found out it was William Haverstick, an American silversmith from Philadelphia. He lived in the late 1799's and early 1800's and fought in the revolutionary war at the battle of Princeton. I do not know what the R, B, and S stand for. I also see what I think is a G.S. 5 on the inside. On the front it says City of London.S.S. I researched that and think it was a ship that sailed from London to New York. Can anyone tell me what all this means? I think its a really nice piece and would love some history. Thank you all in advance!! IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2377 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 05-20-2008 06:00 PM An English website shows what may be the same mark on a spoon. They attribute the mark to William Hutton & Sons, of Sheffield England and note that the spoon is silverplate. Often if you have a distinctive phase; e.g. "City of London S.S." put it in quotes and perform an internet search with Google or Yahoo. Their search engine will often find sites on point. IP: Logged
argentum1 Posts: 602 Registered: Apr 2004	posted 05-20-2008 07:42 PM Always include a photo as this avoids misunderstanding of terms/descriptions. What you think it looks like and what others visulize are often not the same. Besides that we want to see it. Thanks. IP: Logged
sandeesuzie Posts: 6 Registered: May 2008	posted 05-20-2008 09:26 PM Hi argentum1! Thank you for your reply! I have tried to add pictures to this post so you can see the piece I am talking about and the marks. I hope I did it right! IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1652 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 05-21-2008 11:33 AM Hi Sandeesuzie and welcome. The importance of photos can not be understated since there are so many similar looking markings and verbal descriptions are always going to be understood in different ways by different people. Your meat dome is a good example of this where your initial thought was to identify it as made of silver by a circa 1800 American silversmith when it is a silver plated British example from a later time period. I think your example is interesting because of the ship company engraving. This sort of thing is often called hotelware since it is most commonly found with engravings from well known hotels, but it is also found with restaurant, ship, train, military, and other company engravings where there were dining facilities needing large quantities of sturdy and inexpensive yet fancy looking serving pieces. IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 05-21-2008 02:08 PM I am uncertain whether the meat dome is actually from the ship as I would have expected the name to read SS City of London in that case, though I am no expert in usage and others may be confident that the SS for steamship can also appear after the name itself. The engraved arms and motto are those of the City of London Corporation and I do just wonder whether SS might be the abbreviation for some organisation under the umbrella of the Corporation? IP: Logged
silverhunter Posts: 704 Registered: Jul 2007	posted 05-22-2008 06:30 AM Good idea as for searching on Google, what I've found 'till now is that the S.S. City of London was built in 1844. The ship was during the period of 1862-1927 sailing for the Aberdeen Steam navigation Company. I don't know when the "City of London" stopped his history but hopefully I will find out later on. Another ship S.S. Aberdeen is pictured and traveled from Aberdeen to London. It gives a good indication of what the S.S.City of London should have looked like. It's a beautiful silver object and nicely engraved. I always like the history behind subjects so I hope I can also find RBS. It's good to know where it belonged to in that period! IP: Logged
argentum1 Posts: 602 Registered: Apr 2004	posted 05-22-2008 08:31 AM This is purely conjecture on my part but here goes. As the age of 'sailing' ships was coming to an end with the advent of steam powered ships; the protocol for names may have changed. With a sailing vessel the name is first then the home port is seen under the ships name. Naval vessels are indicated by 'USS' or 'HMS' etc. So, during this early period of steamship introduction/development a new naming protocol had to be assigned. Perhaps at this early stage the ships name appeared first then the type of ship appeared last i.e. 'City of london SS'. Then at some later date there came a juxtoposition of name/type of ship i.e. SS City of London. A Naval Historian could probably sort it out. IP: Logged
seaduck Posts: 351 Registered: Dec 2006	posted 05-22-2008 10:43 AM A search on yahoo.uk yields a 'wreck report' for << "The City of London" (S.S) >>, which collided with the Vesta on Aug 13, 1879 and sank. IP: Logged
seaduck Posts: 351 Registered: Dec 2006	posted 05-22-2008 12:18 PM I take it back...sounds like we're going down the wrong path (or keeping with the theme, that we're on the wrong tack). I asked a friend who is the curator of maritime art at the Peabody Essex Museum, and got this response (tho' he hasn't seen the images): <<I would think it isn't the steamer, given the strange placement of SS and also the arms of the city, which wouldn't apply to the ship.>> My new theory: City of London Sanitation Services. IP: Logged
argentum1 Posts: 602 Registered: Apr 2004	posted 05-22-2008 01:01 PM Hello Sandeesuzie. I got mixed up/confused when I saw a photo of a ship. There is no ship on your piece, sorry for my confusion. Have you tried emailing any English silver sites? There is a British silver forum here perhaps someone there has a better grasp of the piece. Good luck and please let us all know what you find. IP: Logged
silverhunter Posts: 704 Registered: Jul 2007	posted 05-22-2008 01:36 PM I think it was a boat, that's for sure! Fantasy gives a lot of fun at my side. But who gives the solution, I wonder for instance the silversmith is also nice to know. I hope all the silver mark lovers take their books and will give a answer to this one. I will follow the topic. IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 05-22-2008 01:51 PM Although the marks don't exactly match those given in Mappin, they appear to be those of William Hutton or William Hutton & Sons, Sheffield & London, mid-19th century, platers. The WH mark matches exactly, as does the B, but Mappin illustrates marks with S and P flanking rather than R and S. This fits with the website that ahwt pointed to above. IP: Logged
silverhunter Posts: 704 Registered: Jul 2007	posted 05-22-2008 02:20 PM Thanks FWG from my side. IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1652 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 05-22-2008 05:05 PM I'm leaning with it not being related to the ship and more to it being related to some part of the government of the City of London. IP: Logged
silverhunter Posts: 704 Registered: Jul 2007	posted 05-23-2008 08:13 AM And so we all try to find a solution? IP: Logged
silverhunter Posts: 704 Registered: Jul 2007	posted 05-23-2008 09:44 AM Another idea perhaps it belonged to a church. The reason is that I just found in a French dictionary the meaning of S.S. it means : Sa Sainteté (his holiness). I don't know exactly the (Latin?) favorite maxim, which belongs to the escutcheon of London but it looks to me complete:Lord lead us, his holiness. So perhaps this one is used by religious? So the boat/ships doesn't exist any more. Argentum, still one photo, I can't help it you are right! " I'm beginning to doubt how many ships are renamed by the of :"city of London, to many I think. (Without s.s.of course). IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 05-23-2008 10:01 AM It doesn't help much, but there is a fork on another silver site which by my recollection had the same trademark as this dome and was labeled City of London SS on a circled belt with a big buckle. There's probably a proper name for the decorative belt motif that is used a lot in Britian. IP: Logged
Dale Posts: 2132 Registered: Nov 2002	posted 05-24-2008 12:58 AM From the photo, the construction has elements of hand work, particularly the screw and bolt look hand made. Could this be Sheffield, ie fusion, plate? It is clear that certain items continued to made of fused copper/silver long after electroplate took over the market. Hand mirrors were one, that continues to the present IMHU. From what I have seen and handled, I suspect that domes, at least large ones, were made in Sheffield plate for a long time after 1850. What are the dimensions? That really helps determine things. Usually domes for commercial meals are rather small, but there are lots of them. Domestic ones are the big items. IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 06-02-2008 07:24 PM I hope we have not caused too much disappointment by revealing that the dome is not American silver but silver-plate and by William Hutton of Sheffield, England; and that it is not from a ship but from the City of London Corporation. It remains an interesting and attractive item however. A solid silver meat dome would be a rarity indeed. Organizations and families that had most of their flatware and other table items made in silver were still likely to use silver-plate for larger and heavier pieces like this. And the City of London is as interesting an original owner as a shipping company in my view. We are talking here of the historic City that remains an independent enclave within the sprawl of Greater London. The City is headed by its Lord Mayor (whereas Greater London has a mere Mayor). It hosts state banquets at the Guildhall which the dome may have graced and I wonder whether the "S.S." might stand for something like “state service”? An inquiry to the London Guildhall Library or the London Metropolitan Archives might throw more light on the subject. The motto under the crest translates as "Lord guide us" which seems a proper sentiment for the City Fathers. When I consider other parts of our local and central government I confess I am more likely to think "God help us". Interesting how it might have got to America. I wonder whether the City turned its hand to entertaining US troops during WW2 and the dome was liberated then. That may seem an unworthy thought but it is the sort of thing the soldiery of any country is prone to and would have required greater skill and enterprise than merely liberating one of the silver spoons we are always advised to count, so please don’t take this as betraying any anti-American sentiment. IP: Logged
nautilusjv Posts: 253 Registered: Nov 2008	posted 10-18-2011 10:16 PM I read this thread with great interest especially Dale's point that Sheffield/fusion plate continued for certain items long after the appearance of electroplating. Was there a particular advantage to using fusion plating for certain items? Better ware, function? Were those pieces marketed that way? Were claims made that sheffield plate was better than electroplating? Or was no distinction made in the selling of these items? Totally curious! Also, excuse my ignorance but what does IMHU stand for? Thanks, Kelly IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2377 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 10-19-2011 10:36 AM I think IMHO means “in my humble opinion”. I think U was struck instead of O. Old Sheffield plate (OSP) used sterling silver while electroplating covers the object with pure silver. OSP ages the same way that a solid sterling piece ages and develops a similar patina. Some would say that it develops a bluish character or color component that pure sterling does not develop. The reason for this difference may be caused by the interaction of the sterling with the copper base. In any event it adds to the charm and mystery of OSP and is one reason why it has always been one of my favorite types of silver. I miss Dale comments and hope that he is well. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 10-19-2011).] IP: Logged
nautilusjv Posts: 253 Registered: Nov 2008	posted 10-20-2011 12:58 AM Thanks awht that all makes sense. I have only one piece of OSP in my collection, a salver by Robert Gainsford. It does indeed have a different feel and look than electroplated pieces. Thanks again, Kelly IP: Logged

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