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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 poor hallmarking
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| Author | Topic: poor hallmarking |
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cbc58 Posts: 341 |
posted 06-20-2017 06:52 PM
  
Came across some silver items for sale and could have purchased them for much less than the silver content - but the hallmarking turned me off. Wondering if collectors feel the same way about hallmarks like those below -- and wonder why a silversmith would do them in such a way. These are actually the first I have seen like this and they almost look like test pieces. Do others come across this often? IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 06-20-2017 09:05 PM
These do seem a bit outside the norm. Some times 1 or 2 out of 12 are badly struck. I think the smith struck their mark and the assay office did the rest with a 3 in one punch. In this case the the bloke doing the marking might have just come back from a liquid lunch... One thing to consider is that it is the hall marks themselves that give silver of this age and older its power. It is a modern affectation having well placed, well organized marks. Personally I would enjoy the oddity of these. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 06-20-2017 10:37 PM
WE over WF is Wm Eley and Wm Fearn, London, "a" for 1818. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 341 |
posted 06-20-2017 10:42 PM
tks for the reply. interesting that you say the assay office may have done the 3 part punch. I assumed that all hallmarks were done by the silversmith and that the assay office simply checked them. would that be correct?? -- or is it common for the assay office to put on the city/date/year/duty marks and the smith only put on their mark ? IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 06-21-2017 03:59 AM
In Britain the assay offices were and are responsible for testing and hallmarking silver. Hence the term “hallmark” (the mark of Goldsmiths’ Hall). The date letter was not included with the town mark as an aid to future collectors but to identify when, and thus by whom, an item was assayed. Up to the early 18th century provincial makers could do their own marking in areas where there was not an assay office but were not allowed to include the lion passant mark used by the assay offices. In 19th century Scotland provincial makers continued to do their own marking if they felt like it. As I understand it, this was on the argument that Scottish law only required sterling to be assayed so it was OK as long as you didn’t overtly claim that the silver was of sterling standard. English law, on the other hand, required silver to be of Sterling or Britannia standard. As Agleopar says, it is only in more recent times that the hallmarks have also been treated as part of the decoration requiring careful application. Some folk have fun collecting and recording the mistakes that occur in early hallmarking which can sometimes simply be the result of a very busy day at the office. I would not be put off by marks such as you illustrate. I probably wouldn't even have seen the haphazard punching as something to remark on when it comes to silver of this age. That might just imply that I can be a careless collector, of course. [This message has been edited by agphile (edited 06-21-2017).] IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 341 |
posted 06-22-2017 08:41 PM
Thank you for the replies. I must be OCD because off-center/slanted hallmarks like in the pic are not my cup of tea. I have come to appreciate crisp, clear marks and quality that shines through. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are saying that the marks outside of the makers marks are put on by the assay office. If that is the case then that leaves the finished product up to chance depending on how many tankards of ale's the person in the assay office had prior to punching in the marks. Tks. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 06-23-2017 10:18 AM
Funny thing is those hallmarks are quite appealing to me.  As long as they are deep and crisp, I actually prefer them to vary in placement, it actually gives the pieces character. It's the lightly stuck and over polished pieces that I cannot stand. Those look like a nice group of spoons to me. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 06-23-2017 10:36 AM
Here are some earlier pieces from my collection:  They are all over the place on some of them! IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 06-23-2017 05:24 PM
I agree with Asheland. Eley and Fearn were very successful flatware specialists and these pieces have a story to tell that most of their other pieces will not have. I think the WE over WF mark is very attractive and even more so when they were partners with William Crawner. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 341 |
posted 06-30-2017 12:03 PM
have a question on rubbed marks. if a makers mark is rubbed, but you can still identify who it is (in this case Hester Bateman on a spoon) - does that make a significant difference to collectors - or is it looked at as just part of the aging process through use? Guessing it would take a lot of handling to get a rubbed mark. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 06-30-2017 09:52 PM
Some collectors may be picky, but I do not think it makes any difference for most objects. It may make it harder to authenticate a rare piece or a highly sought after silversmith. I can imagine that some pieces for rare and expensive silversmiths have been forged and then the mark is rubbed down to hide any defects. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 07-01-2017).] IP: Logged |
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