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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 asparagus tongs
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| Author | Topic: asparagus tongs |
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ranger1202 Posts: 24 |
posted 01-20-2018 05:28 PM
  
[26-2697] I really like these mechanical asparagus tons but have been unable to find the maker and year of mfg. Any help would be appreciated. IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-20-2018 07:16 PM
Never sure whether I can trust my eyes these days, but if the mark on the right is a lion passant (going downhill in the picture) this would be the British mark for sterling silver and the tongs would date from before 1784 when an extra duty mark became obligatory. Back then small items were marked with just the lion and the makers mark. The tongs could have been deemed small enough for this to apply. If I am right in reading the maker's mark as IB, there were too many makers with those initials for me to feel I can suggest a candidate. Similar circular sprung hinges are also sometimes found on sugar tongs from around 1780. [This message has been edited by agphile (edited 01-20-2018).] IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-20-2018 07:23 PM
Never sure whether I can trust my eyes these days, but if the mark on the right is a lion passant (going downhill in the picture) this would be the British mark for sterling silver and the tongs would date from before 1784 when an extra duty mark became obligatory. Back then small items were marked with just the lion and the makers mark. The tongs could have been deemed small enough for this to apply. If I am right in reading the maker's mark as IB, there were too many makers with those initials for me to feel I can suggest a candidate. IP: Logged |
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Janet1 Posts: 46 |
posted 01-20-2018 10:33 PM
Hi and Welcome, I had found John Buckett possibly attributed this mark. But I'm quite the novice, maybe someone can double check on that. But it's a lovely piece. Janet IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-21-2018 06:11 AM
The mark that appears to match (I:B) is listed among the unregistered marks in Grimwade's London Goldsmiths as found on sugar tongs of 1770 and tentatively attributed to Buckett. However, Buckett had registered a mark with cursive initials in 1760 as a sword cutler and was still recorded as a sword cutler in a 1773 Parliamentary Report. Grimwade doesn't explain why he was suggested as the maker of the tongs. The "unregistered" mark with a colon between the initials was presumably actually recorded in one of the two missing registers. If in the Smallworkers for 1739-58, you might wonder why the later 1760 mark was not used on the asparagus tongs. If in the Largeworkers for 1758-73, this was actually the wrong register for somebody making tongs. Of course, things were not always as neat as this, so my doubts are not exactly definitive. Somebody who has a silver mark for use on fittings for swords could feasibly have diversified into making other items but I would want to see more evidence before accepting Grimwade's suggestion, particularly given that so many other silversmiths at that time shared the same initials. Perhaps I am being too cautious. In any event the asparagus tongs and the sugar tongs must be by the same London maker. Incidentally, I am not sure how, after editing my original reply to the original post I then managed to repeat my unedited reply as well. Must have clicked something in error! Sorry for the duplication. [This message has been edited by agphile (edited 01-21-2018).] IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-21-2018 06:45 AM
Reading the above I think I ought to add something about dating the tongs. The bright cut decoration on the arms is extremely unlikely to be earlier than c.1775 so the tongs can pretty confidently be dated to c.1780. This gives the starting point for trying to identify the maker. And I am sure that many, perhaps most collectors would happily accept Grimwade's attribution to Buckett since Grimwade is the standard reference book. Janet1's wording of "possibly John Buckett" is the safest way to put it after setting aside my doubts. [This message has been edited by agphile (edited 01-21-2018).] IP: Logged |
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PhilO Posts: 166 |
posted 01-21-2018 11:38 AM
I have seen this I:B mark with a 1779 hallmark on a candle snuffer so c1780 sounds good to me. Phil IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-23-2018 08:47 AM
Phil I see that you show reservations about this mark on your silvermakersmarks website. I had not thought to check there before making my original response. I think that the italic I:B may have been an interpretation of a worn punch and was possibly in fact the same as the mark we are discussing. Its tentative attribution to Bucket goes back to the 1921 Jackson - I suspect simply because the initials matched. His cursive 1760 mark is recorded in the same edition as appearing on candlesticks of 1763. These entries are then repeated in the Pickford's revised Jackson. When an unexplained attribution is simply repeated through editions of Jackson and Grimwade I think it is reasonable to worry about its validity. On the other hand, as long as the cursive JB mark was not mis-identified, the appearance of one mark on candlesticks and the other on a later candle snuffer might tie the two together and demonstrate that Buckett did diversify. But would he have diversified into both candlesticks and tongs? I think we are right to be cautious. David IP: Logged |
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PhilO Posts: 166 |
posted 01-23-2018 12:54 PM
David We have to accept Jackson's sighting of Buckett's cursive mark on the 1763 candlesticks but, like you, I am somewhat dubious about the attribution of this I:B mark to him. Buckett's 1760 registration was as a sword cutler and he was still listed as a sword cutler in 1773. Candlesticks to snuffers to tongs are not necessarily huge leaps but by how much would this particular leopard have changed its spots? I fear that this mark along with others from the lost registers may never get a definite attribution. Phil IP: Logged |
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